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Thanks for tuning in for Gospel Solutions for Families
on the Mormon Channel.
This show is all about offering practical, relevant tips
for raising children in faith.
I'm your host, Amy Iverson.
Today we dive into a topic we wish we didn't have to discuss,
but open communication, knowledge,
and relying on the Spirit are key to preventing or dealing
with this tough issue.
I'm talking about pornography.
In October 2010 conference, Elder Boyd K. Packer
said: "We raise an alarm and warn
members of the Church to wake up and understand
what is going on.
Parents, be alert, ever watchful that this wickedness might
threaten your family circle."
Joining me today are two women who feel strongly
about the need to talk about pornography
within our families.
Sister Linda S. Reeves is the Second Counselor in the Relief
Society General Presidency.
Her degree is in special education,
and she has 13 children.
She loves to travel and learn about new cultures.
Also joining me is marriage and family therapist Angie Cella.
She is a sex addiction and trauma therapist,
and Angie has four boys.
Thank you both for being here.
Thank you.
Sister Reeves, in your conference talk
where you addressed this a couple of years ago,
you stressed the importance that part
of the reason we're here on earth
is to manage our passions.
And I think we have to talk to our kids young.
And when we do, how important is that to point out to our kids
that these intimate feelings that they
may be having are God-given?
I think it makes all the difference in the world,
especially as members of the Church,
for us to know that Heavenly Father, as you say,
has given us these feelings.
They are the feelings that cause us to want to get married
and to want to have that intimate relationship that we
can with a spouse that causes you to bond to each other,
to love each other more, and to plan together.
And I think the key word there is manage,
so we have to learn how to manage it.
And Angie, you talked about, with pornography,
even if kids go seeking this out,
we have to remember, and treat them as such,
that they're still good kids.
Right.
I think it gets really easy because pornography is bad,
and pornography is the enemy.
It can be easy to sometimes pin that on our kids.
But we've got to keep in mind, our kids are not the enemy;
porn is the enemy.
Our kids aren't bad; their natural curiosity
is going to come up.
They naturally want to know about these kinds of things,
and what we need to do is help steer them away
from that and towards us so that we
can be the one answering those questions
and help them know they are really good kids just having
normal curiosity come up, and we're going
to support them through that.
It is true.
We are all children of our Heavenly Father.
Even those who have made terrible mistakes
are good people and beloved of our Heavenly Father.
And thankfully, He's provided our Savior and His Atonement
for us, that we can be clean and good again.
Let's start at the beginning.
So we talked about the need to talk to your kids
about this early.
We hear, Angie, all the time, it's not if
but when this will happen.
Your children will come across it either by accident
or searching it out.
So when that happens, let's give some practical tips here.
When that happens the first time,
and either your kid comes to you or you catch them,
what do we do as parents?
First of all, take a breath.
Take a nice deep breath because you're
going to have some feelings about what happened.
And so I would even back up a little bit more
and say you need to get prepared.
You need to know that it's not if but when,
and so you need to be prepared as much as you can,
knowing that that's going to be startling for you as a parent.
Yeah.
Before this ever happens, prepare.
Prepare, right?
So you find out, you take that deep breath,
and then you say, "Hey, you've just seen some pictures.
Do you know what that is?"
Ask questions.
Get curious.
That's the number-one thing that I tell parents: Get curious.
If you're curious, you're out of judgment.
So get curious, be--learn to be comfortable yourself with being
uncomfortable, because if you're uncomfortable,
your kids are going to feel it, and it can't be an open
dialogue.
If they're feeling that your discomfort--that
you're uncomfortable, they're going to want to not say
anything to upset you.
So if you can go into that being calm and saying,
"Let's have an open dialogue about this,"
they're going to be calm.
And now they're going to start to talk,
and you can ask, "How are you feeling?"
Help them make sense of their feelings,
because they're going to be having feelings.
Normalize, like you said.
"These are God-given feelings, and this
is the wrong time and the wrong place and the wrong atmosphere.
But one day"--right?
"One day this will be a beautiful experience for you,
but this isn't that."
And help them understand the difference
between a healthy, loving sexual relationship and pornography.
They're not the same thing.
And I love the two words you said: "Hug them."
I did.
When this happens, hug them.
Show them love.
And also, those are some great things to do--there are some
certain things we should not do, certain ways we
shouldn't react.
Tell me about those.
Well, the dialogue that you have is so important.
And to overreact, to make them feel shame,
to make them feel like they're doing a bad thing, I mean,
it's--all of us, we know.
We go to the grocery store.
No matter where you go all day, you're going to run into it,
it seems.
And I think there's a point at which children
start to recognize, often very young,
that there's something wrong.
This does not feel good.
And so for them to come to you, like you're saying,
is a huge plus if they do come to you.
And I love what you say about asking questions, Angie,
because that, as you say, also opens up the dialogue,
but it helps them to feel that you
are interested and concerned about them.
And listening is so important too.
Yeah.
I think we have to be so careful not to react with anger, which
can be easy to do, or shock, that shame
that you talked about.
All of those things.
You have to make sure that you are ready when it happens so
that you don't react that way.
So those are some great tips for parents, I think.
Breathe, hug, don't judge, love.
What about for that kid, though?
What do we tell them to do now?
Now that we've kind of gone over that hump that everyone's going
to go over, what do--what do we tell our kids to do next?
Well, in my own situation with my own children,
when this has come up at different stages,
especially if they're feeling guilt or shame
or embarrassment--and often it is not their fault.
But in any case, to kneel down and go to their Heavenly Father
and plead with Him and ask for Him--His help--is the first
thing I have said to my children.
And to do that together is a sweet thing
as a parent and a child.
I like that.
I like to do it together.
So you're not just going, "You need to go pray,"
but do it with them and guide that.
And you also talked about having them kind of examine
what happened when it happened.
So are they spending too much time alone
in their bedroom with their phone, or things like that too?
Well, absolutely.
To have them recognize, "When am I
having these feelings, these temptations?
Where am I?
Who am I with?
What am I doing?
What are the things that are likely to bring this on again?"
Those are the things that, especially as a child gets
older, they can list and really think about, and then make
a plan.
Having a cell phone in the bedroom and a door shut
is always a bad idea these days.
We used to not have to worry about that, but you do now.
And, if I could say, I love the idea of--Elder Ballard gave
a wonderful talk in the April 2016 general conference where
he talked about family councils and to counsel together with
your children and to set boundaries,
set rules with them.
In fact, the more that they're involved in that, the better.
And to have them even choose consequences
is a wonderful thing, too.
Yeah.
My children always kind of get shocked
when I say, "What do you think your consequence should be?"
But usually they choose something pretty appropriate.
And it often is even harder than--
What you would have done?
Yes.
And Angie, you talked about the importance
of teaching them to talk to a grown-up about it.
So it may not even be you if they don't feel comfortable.
Right, right.
I mean, you know, there's a grandparent,
there's maybe an aunt or an uncle,
there's maybe a close family friend.
Someone that you know is going to give good, solid advice
and support.
The most important thing is--you know,
I think there's two--you asked the question "What do we do now
that they've seen it?"
And I think there's kind of two situations.
One is the child who's just seen it and is shocked
and doesn't know what to do with it.
Right.
It pops up from a game or something.
And the other is a child who's been viewing it for a while
and actually may have a problem at that point.
So I think there's a little bit kind of different tactics
to take.
But in either one of those situations,
we want to help our kids understand
what they're feeling.
So that trusted adult, someone who's
already navigated the complexities of understanding
feelings and emotions and problem solving,
to have that person to sort of anchor
with and ask those important questions and problem solve.
Because we want to raise kids to be functioning adults, right?
We're not raising kids to be kids.
So teaching them, asking those questions,
"What do you think?"--that is an amazing life skill.
And of course, let's put it to work on the topic
of pornography--anything.
We're going to use it for anything.
But helping them make sense and make meaning
of what they felt, how confusing it
is to feel excited and interested and curious on one
hand and heavy and dark and sick on the other,
and they're feeling it at the same time.
And usually it's going to take an adult
to help someone who hasn't navigated this to get
through those murky waters.
Let's talk about those kids who have been viewing it
for a while and they like it, and they don't--maybe they
don't want to stop at this point.
And I have heard kids ask, "Who does it bother?"
I've heard adults ask this.
"Why does it matter?
Who does it hurt if I'm just--if nobody else knows and I'm just
doing it?"
What do we say to them, Sister Reeves?
Well, the consequences, or the negative consequences
that come from pornography are wide and broad.
First of all, loss of the Spirit is
one of the most negative things that happens.
But along with that, our self-esteem
suffers, our relationships with other people,
future relationships, future dating
and marriage relationships.
People become objects instead of this loving relationship.
Often deceit and lying is involved.
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And I think your self-mastery, your ability to control
your life, becomes--it just continues on a downward spiral.
Yeah.
I think those are all so clear to us as we're looking at it.
But how do we help our teenager know that that is actually true
and that that is going to be a problem later in their life?
I think our teens are so smart.
They really are.
They are bright, and they are curious,
and they are--they want answers, and so we need to give them
answers.
Legitimate answers.
We need to be able to sit and break it down and say--one
of the things that I would say is,
"This is changing the structure of your brain.
This part of your brain that puts on the brakes,
that says 'Slow down, maybe not right now'--you're weakening
that."
And that's what you just mentioned,
their ability to make other life choices, to weigh consequences.
It's actually changing the structure of the brain
once an addiction is in place.
And that midbrain where we feel our emotions,
and there's that impulsivity and the part that says "Yes, go,
now," it hijacks the whole brain.
So I think we need to help our kids understand.
It's hard because on one hand, our teenagers--their prefrontal
cortex, it's not done developing.
Right.
And that's their ability to weigh.
So we're talking to them about weighing options
when they are not quite fully developed,
but they're learning.
Well, I like that because while they may not under--or maybe
they don't value even, at this point, losing the Spirit,
maybe that makes sense to them because there are kids who will
say, "Oh, I would never do drugs because then it takes control
of your life," that this is so similar.
Well, and I think keeping in mind,
it's not a--it's not a one or another;
it's not the body or the Spirit.
It's everything.
This is impacting you spiritually,
talking about how does that impact your spirit, how
does this impact you physically in the brain?
And then how does that translate into your behaviors
and your feelings and your emotions?
Pornography is not something that just impacts one angle;
it is impacting every single angle
of a person who is viewing it, from emotions
to thoughts to behaviors.
So you are a professional therapist.
How do we know--because like we said,
every family is going to have to deal with this.
I think that we all know that at this point.
But there is a difference between someone
who looks at it once and then done, or even the kid
who maybe a couple of times over a couple of years,
and the child who is having serious problems, or an adult.
How do we know when to seek professional help?
You know, there's a few--I get a lot of people coming in saying,
"I have an addiction, I have an addiction."
And I'm going to do a complete assessment.
And often I say, "Actually you don't
meet an addiction criteria.
But what I hear you telling me is,
you're participating in things that
are against your values system.
How do we make that align?"
Right?
So we do need to make space that viewing pornography does not
necessarily indicate addiction.
Addiction, I'm going to be looking for, you've tried
to stop but you can't.
Your behaviors have increased in frequency
or in content over time.
Maybe you start looking off--looking at swimsuits,
and pretty soon you're into this,
and next you're into hardcore pornography.
And so there's movement; it's progressively getting worse.
And also there's sort of, like, a secrecy factor.
You're hiding it.
Why?
You're feeling really crummy about it.
You're not feeling good about yourself, and over time
to hold that, it's going to just aggravate the behaviors even
more.
You're going to end up using more porn and more porn
because it's going to numb your brain,
and then you don't have to feel that shame.
So looking at frequency, how often
is the behavior escalating?
That's what I would want.
At least seek a professional's counsel at that point.
They may tell you no.
"Just do this for now."
Yeah, for now.
But at least you're getting some consultation,
and it kind of helps you stabilize and ground.
And what about approaching a bishop?
Yes.
We have so many great leaders, and a bishop
has great leaders around him.
It may be that a Young Women president or Young Men
president could step in and help.
Confidentiality is huge with this issue, however,
and we recognize that.
But bishops do want to help, and they
have a feeling, I think, for "I can't handle this anymore,"
although there are other people within a ward that
could be great mentors.
Again, that confidentiality, especially with youth,
is so, so important.
And there are some great resources.
And I want to make sure we cover resources for parents,
but there are also resources for spouses, whole families who
are struggling.
Sister Reeves?
Well, the addiction recovery program is a wonderful program
that the Church has.
There are physical meetings that people can go to.
They're not just for the addict but for spouses and family,
as you're mentioning.
But if a kid is just too mortified
to go to a meeting, what is the next step?
And even with our youth, it gets really tricky.
We've had some pilot programs for youth,
but the confidentiality, again, and laws protecting
them, which are wonderful laws, prohibit us
from doing a lot along those lines.
But the Church magazines do have a lot of great articles.
The overcomingpornography.org website
has a lot of wonderful articles.
If you check with the Friend and the New Era,
there are articles coming at a fairly regular basis that
are really helpful.
Yeah.
And what do you think about the resources?
What resources would you suggest, Angie?
There are some really great books out.
There's books more for younger kids, like maybe 12 and under.
There's some books more for, like, 12
and above that either teens can read on their own,
or parents and teens could read together,
or just parent read it because it's just great information.
There's wonderful websites where we're really
helping our parents, kids, teens, all of them understand,
"Here's what's really happening to the brain,"
really making meaning and sense out of this.
And those are the kind of resources
I would be looking for, how to make sense out of it.
There's so much research.
Donald L. Hilton, he is a neurosurgeon,
and he has written a book called He Restoreth My Soul, talking
all about the brain, talking about how
it's impacting things.
Jill Manning, she wrote a book called
What's the Big Deal about Pornography Anyway?
And she goes to really speak to teens and parents
within the book.
There's another book called Good Pictures Bad Pictures.
Excellent book for--I mean, even my 12-year-old can sit down
and read that.
We've read it together, but I can hand it to him
and say, "Go ahead."
And it's safe, and I know there's nothing in there
that I wouldn't feel comfortable with.
And there's websites.
Jill Manning has put together an amazing organization
to combat pornography, along with authors of Good Pictures
Bad Pictures.
They've done the same things.
And that PDF, I notice, is available online for free.
It is.
It's free.
They've got three different types of PDFs
for parents, for kids, for teens.
There's been a lot of research by a man named Dr. Patrick
Carnes.
He was kind of the founding father
of treating sex addiction.
There is just--if you want to find it, it's there.
And you should want to find it, as a parent.
Angie, you talked to me about something
I thought was so important.
And it's a little more preventive in a way,
but you talked about modeling the way
our Savior is to our children and how important that is.
When we act as a loving Heavenly Father would
or as a loving Savior would, they then
will be more willing to seek out our Heavenly
Father in their struggles.
Can you talk about that?
Yeah.
You know, as we're trying to teach our children
about Heavenly Father and this all-powerful, loving Father,
what they have to relate that to is these all-powerful parents.
So what happens is, as we parent,
if we're the kind of parent that we are judging and criticizing
and then we say, "Go pray," they are
going to start to formulate the image that their Heavenly
Father is critical and judging and vindictive.
And so as parents, I just love the example of Jesus Christ
with the woman who was brought to Him in adultery.
And one of the things I loved is that when everybody sped up,
and you can just imagine the energy was high
and everybody was picking up stones
and they were ready to throw them,
He scoops down and draws in the sand, and very quietly says,
you know, "Those of you who haven't sinned,
cast the first stone."
And people quietly walk away.
When everybody sped up, He slowed down.
And He didn't make her feel tiny or small; He didn't tell her
she was bad or undeserving of love.
He didn't say, "Now go pray to your Heavenly Father
and ask for forgiveness!"
He said, "Where are thine accusers?
Go your way; don't sin anymore."
I just imagine that being such a loving encounter,
and that's the tactic we need to take with our kids.
And as we model that, they will learn a loving Heavenly Father.
Now, if we don't model that, guess what?
They're resilient, and there is that loving Heavenly Father,
and hopefully they're going to find a way
to get to know Him as He really is at one point in their lives.
So there's always hope, no matter what.
Yes.
I love the idea of hope in every topic we talk about.
And Sister Reeves, if we messed up when our kids were young,
we can still change and tell them, "Oh, I messed up."
And we can say we're sorry and tell our kids
we're going to do better, too.
We can.
I love this because I agree so much that we are
our children's image of our Father in Heaven
and our Savior--beautifully said, thank you--and yes,
that our Father is so loving.
He knew when we came to this earth that we would mess up,
and that's why He provided our Savior for us
and why our Savior was willing to do
what He did for us, that we can receive
that forgiveness and that healing.
And something lovely you said, Sister Reeves,
is that something parents can do,
which I feel like gives me power,
is pray to help--pray to know how we can show our children
that we love them.
Sometimes we as parents think we're doing it right,
but we just need that extra help.
And He will always help us.
Well, He will.
And you bring to mind the things that we
need to do in our home to help to keep the Spirit there
and to help the children feel that love of our Heavenly
Father.
And certainly our daily scripture study
and our prayer and having family home evening and these things
that do bring love in the home, that do cause parents to step
back and say, "Hey, are we doing the important things that
will help bring the Spirit in our home and help our children
feel this love?"
And sometimes, especially when we
have kids dabbling in pornography,
they don't want to come.
They don't want to be part of family prayer;
they don't want to be part--what do we do then?
You continue to have it, and you continue
to invite them with love.
Not with coercion, but with love.
And I know that as we do those things,
that there is a spirit that comes into the home.
And whether those children feel it today or next week or years
from now, it will be there somewhere in their hearts
and in their minds and draw them back.
Angie, you deal with this every day.
What hope is there for parents and spouses who feel paralyzed,
who feel like they don't know what to do and there's no hope?
Well, I think, start off by knowing
that your kids are resilient.
They really are.
And just like we've been through really hard things,
they're going to go through hard things
and they're going to learn how to come out on top.
They're going to have to wrestle,
and they're going to have to struggle.
And as much as we want to prevent--boy,
do I want to prevent my boys from struggling--we
can't prevent all of it.
There are going to be some wrestles they're going to have,
and so we do the very best that we can,
knowing that Someone else above knows
our kids far better than we do.
Someone knows what to bless them with
and when to bless them with whatever it is that they need.
We do the best we can knowing our kids are strong,
we're strong.
And if the number-one thing we put at the priority,
always number one, is this relationship,
not image managing--"I want to look like my family is OK"--not
fear and anger, but if the most important thing is
the relationship between me and my child and doing nothing
to damage that while being firm and holding fast to what
your beliefs are and your values system--years later,
it might take years, right?
You can't--it's the whole plan.
Agency, right?
But they have something.
They have roots to come back to if they need to.
And Sister Reeves, I think also we
can take some comfort as parents in knowing
that, as you reminded me, Heavenly Father trusted us
with these children and will help us.
He has so much love for us and is so--I am convinced--so
anxious to give us the answers that we need.
But it's not an immediate thing, is it?
It's an ongoing--it's a lifetime of effort and seeking that
inspiration.
But knowing that our Heavenly Father wants us back,
He's not putting roadblocks in our way on purpose.
And we sometimes wonder, why all this evil at this time?
But He has given us solutions and help, great help.
Thank you both so much for your insights on this today.
I appreciate it.
We want to thank both of these ladies for their insights
on protecting our families from pornography.
Sister Linda S. Reeves is the Second Counselor in the Relief
Society General Presidency, and Angie Cella
is a marriage and family therapist who focuses
on sex addiction and therapy.
And thank you all for tuning in.
Gospel Solutions for Families on the Mormon Channel.
Subscribe to the podcast on mormonchannel.org, the Mormon
Channel app, or on iTunes.
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